Call it conservative political correctness, hypocrisy, or deception.

On the heels of the endorsement by the National Right to Life Committee of Fred Thompson for the Repub nomination for President, Chris Matthews interviewed its executive director, David O'Steen. Here is the transcript (with the relevant question in italics):



On the heels of Senator Brownback‘s endorsement of John McCain and Pat Robertson‘s support of Rudy Giuliani, the National Right to Life Committee officially today threw its weight behind Republican presidential candidate Fred Thompson. Can Thompson be the candidate for the pro-life movement and social conservatives generally?

David O‘Steen is the executive director of the National Right to Life Committee.

Thank you, sir.

Why did you pick Fred Thompson, rather than John McCain, who is a real lifelong pro-lifer?

DAVID O‘STEEN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL RIGHT TO LIFE COMMITTEE:

Well, we examined three things, the candidate‘s position, the candidate‘s record, and their electability.

And, quite frankly, Senator Thompson scored on all three. He has got a strong pro-life stand on the issues. He‘s committed to appointing the kind of judges that would reverse Roe v. Wade, judges that will interpret the Constitution according to their text.

He‘s voted right down the line on the issues, including—and his stand on embryonic stem cell research is very pro-life. He opposes the kind of research that would require killing human embryos and supports the kind of research that is producing cures now and wouldn‘t harm anyone. And he‘s got a record...

MATTHEWS: Well, how do you stand—but what about his opposition—he was doing—he said this on “Meet the Press” recently, very recently—that he opposes passing a constitutional amendment, amending the Constitution to basically outlaw—let‘s take a look at what he said about the amendment to ban abortion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “MEET THE PRESS”)

TIM RUSSERT, NBC WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: Could you run as a candidate on that platform, promising a human life amendment banning all abortions?

FRED THOMPSON, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No.

RUSSERT: You would not?

THOMPSON: No.

I have always—and that‘s been my position the entire time I have been in politics. I thought Roe vs. Wade was wrongly decided. I think this platform originally came out as a response particularly to Roe vs. Wade because of that.

Before Roe vs. Wade, states made those decisions. I think people ought to be free at state and local levels to make decisions that even Fred Thompson disagrees with. To have an amendment compelling, going back even further than pre-Roe vs. Wade, to have a constitutional amendment to do that, I do think would be the way to go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: But doesn‘t—Mr. O‘Steen, doesn‘t a right-to-lifer believe in outlawing abortion, period, not leaving it up to the states, like states‘ rights?

O‘STEEN: Well, of course, what—first, let me—I will point out, Fred Thompson has clarified it. He wouldn‘t try to change the Republican platform.

But no one can promise a human life amendment in the next term of—the next presidential term. It would take a change of 25 to 30 votes in the United States Senate. And that‘s not going to happen.

The human life amendment has been a goal of the right-to-life amendment, but it‘s a tool. It‘s a tool to protect unborn children. What we‘re trying to really do is protect unborn children.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

O‘STEEN: And that‘s going to be done first by reversing Roe v. Wade, by getting the kind of judges that Fred Thompson will appoint. Now, having...

MATTHEWS: What is your ultimate goal? Your ultimate goal, though, as a right-to-life organization is to outlaw abortion in America, isn‘t it?

O‘STEEN: Our ultimate goal is to pass laws to protect unborn children.

But, remember, with a human life amendment or reversing through the court, it‘s going to take enabling state legislation.

You know, Fred Thompson voted in the Senate against a resolution praising Roe vs. Wade. He voted against a sense of the Senate resolution. His support to overturn Roe vs. Wade is clear. He‘s been there. He knows that life begins at conception. He has stated that. He opposes abortion.

Remember, also, he‘s a conservative. He‘s a federalist. And, of course, we have a federal system of government. And, when he states that people in the states and people, through their legislatures, can pass laws he disagrees with—and notice he said he disagrees with—that‘s just our system of government. But he‘s a pro-lifer. He wants to see pro-life laws passed. And he worked hard in the Senate...

MATTHEWS: What about—what about Romney? Romney says he‘s a pro-lifer. McCain is a pro-lifer.

Let me ask you about Romney, who is—who is doing so well in the polls in Iowa and New Hampshire. He may well be the early front-runner when we start actually voting in this country. Would you support him if he were to win the nomination?

O‘STEEN: I don‘t want to get into hypotheticals, because I believe Fred Thompson will win the nomination.

But let me say this about the early states. And Fred Thompson is positioned well to win in states like South Carolina and Nevada. With the compressed primary schedule and essentially a mini national primary February 5, it‘s not clear how—how those early states are going to play in this.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I have always wondered something about...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I have always wondered something about the pro-life movement. If—if you believe that killing—well, killing a fetus or killing an unborn child is—is murder, why don‘t you bring murder charge or seek a murder penalty against a woman who has an abortion? Why do you let her off, if you really believe it‘s murder?

O‘STEEN: We have never sought criminal penalties against a woman.

MATTHEWS: Why not?

O‘STEEN: There haven‘t been criminal penalties against a woman.

MATTHEWS: Well, why not?

O‘STEEN: Well, you don‘t know the circumstances and how she‘s been forced into this. And that‘s...

MATTHEWS: Forced into it?

(CROSSTALK)

O‘STEEN: ... to be effective.

We‘re out—we‘re not out—we‘re out to try to protect unborn children.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: See, this is where the hypocrisy comes in, sir. If it‘s wrong to have an abortion, why don‘t you criminalize it?

(CROSSTALK)

O‘STEEN: I don‘t think that‘s the way you‘re going to protect unborn children.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: But, if you say it‘s murder, why don‘t you act on that?

O‘STEEN: I think civil—I think civil penalties, aiming at the doctors, taking away their financial incentives. We‘re after what works to protect unborn children. And that‘s the goal.

MATTHEWS: But the problem with all the states‘ rights is, you just go to the next state. And, if you outlaw it in America, you just go to Canada or Mexico or Dominican Republic.

Unless you penalize the person who has an abortion, I don‘t see how you actually stop somebody from having one.

O‘STEEN: Well, I—I‘m not—we have never sought criminal penalties against a woman.

I think it‘s much—far more effective to take away the financial incentive of the abortion doctors that are doing this for profit and for money. And we are—and our goal, remember, is to protect unborn children and to do what will work.

And it is a fact we have a federal system of government, yes.

MATTHEWS: Right.

O‘STEEN: Yes, we‘re going to work for laws in all of the states. And we will overturn Roe v. Wade. And Fred Thompson would help do that.

MATTHEWS: Do you believe that abortion is murder?

O‘STEEN: I believe it‘s the killing of a human being. Murder is a technical term. And right now, unfortunately, it‘s legal. But it‘s the killing of a human being.

MATTHEWS: But you do believe it‘s murder?

O‘STEEN: I believe it‘s the killing of a human being, that‘s the term.

MATTHEWS: It just seems like you make a basic political judgment that would blame the doctor, when, in fact, these doctors don‘t go door to door offering people abortion services. The person who wants the abortion goes to a doctor and has the procedure done by the doctor. Yet you put the onus on the doctor. It just seems to be the strangest way to enforce a law.

O‘STEEN: Remember, that‘s where the financial incentive is, and the physician knows what they‘re doing. How many women have been told this is a blob of tissue? This isn‘t really a human life? How are they pressured by men that want to escape their responsibilities, perhaps? What about a young girl that‘s been impregnated by a male, where it‘s a case of statutory rape?

But the abortion doctor knows exactly what they‘re doing. They‘re taking a human life. And you will see Roe v. Wade reversed and you‘ll see respect for human life restored. And Fred Thompson will help do that.

MATTHEWS: Thank you very much for coming on this show, David O‘Steen of the National Right to Life Committee. Up next, Rudy Giuliani is still leading in the big states. But who is in the best position to catch him? The round table is coming up next. This is HARDBALL, only on MSNBC



Matthews asks why the pro-life movement does not seek prosecution of the woman if abortion is considered murder. O'Steen ultimately replies it's "far more effective to take away the financial incentive of the abortion doctors that are doing this for profit and for money." But, as Matthews notes, "these doctors don't go door to door offering abortion services. The person who wants the abortion goes to a doctor and has the procedure done by a doctor." Yet O'Steen, and some other anti-abortion rights activists want to exonerate the individual offering payment for (what has been deemed) murder and deter the doctor (which, ironically, would reduce the supply of providers, thereby increasing the asking price and the profit of the doctor providing the service).

It may be political correctness, a victim mentality the right often claims to be offended by, or a soft-on-crime impulse. Perhaps it's deceit, members of the movement really believing that abortion is not killing, hence no need to prosecute the person offering a contract. Or perhaps, as Matthews says, "this is where the hypocrisy comes in, sir."